As discussion seems to have tapered off in the initial swap poll thread and several members indicated they would change their vote - HERE IS THE OFFICIAL POLL!

Please note that we will be implementing what the majority wants as indicated by the results of THIS poll, so please choose your vote carefully!

Also, please note that IF the vote is in favor of restrictions, if a moderator contacts you about getting your information up-to-date in the database, you really should try to address that as soon as you can as it may prohibit you from playing in future swaps.

ETA: I've been asked to clarify option #2 - restrictions being at the discretion of the swap host. My apologies if that is unclear. The intention on that option is that the swap host would have total discretion, restrict or not, and if restricted, then what restrictions.

Morning. I voted for 6 months. :)
Good to see a new poll

I'm holding off my vote until I've thought about it some more. :P

I've been very much in favor of leaving it up to the individual swap host in the past, but some of you previously presented some decent arguments against that in the other thread (though they may not necessarily outweigh my own arguments in favor either). :wink:

So yeah, I think I need to sleep on it :sleep: before "choosing vewwwwy carefuwwwy..." :giggle:

I voted for Swap restrictions at the discretion of the swap host. I believe that way if someone wants to have a swap with no restrictions then it's doable this way. :wink:

Hi Rosie!

I was a good little Lemmy and I voted :grin:

I think that all of the moderators on BookObsessed deserve a big thanks for all the work you do. It is very appreciated from all of us!

:hug:

Thanks Lemmy! :hug:

I voted, and rather than a long diatribe about why I'm voting this way, I'll just say that I think it's up to the person in charge of the swap... Kinda like I play by their rules and I get in the swap.

:kiss:

I am bumping this one cause suddenly the other (Old) thread is on top even though nobody posted in it for ages? :blink:

I like the 6 month rule...and as a hostess I don't always have time to be monitoring everyone's activity in the swap so a general rule is useful.

I agree plus I would not feel comfortable to tell others, no you can't play in my swap.

I'm with both of you. I do not want to be the person responsible for saying you can't play nor do I want to have to check everyone out before the swap.

I'm pretty much bouncing between two choices, no restrictions and 6 months.

I closed that thread just now and posted to vote here. :wink:

But if a six month rule is in place, then you might, if someone who owes books for more than six months tries to sign up.

and what happens if I'm hosting the swap and I'm behind six months, then I have to tell myself I can't play, and that would be an ugly conversation, I can be quite nasty to myself sometimes! So not fair! :rofl:

YOU WILL send "Wicked", MY PRETTY!!

Yes but then it is not my choice but the choice and rule of this site. which makes it much easier to tell them. :)
Plus if it is a rule here I assume most people will not join the swap if they are behind in there mailings?

AAAAAHHHHH!!!!! *runs away screaming* I have less than 100 pages left, I WILL finish it this weekend! :lol:

:rofl:

I understand what you're trying to say, but I'm going to be the :evil: advocate here...


Would you send a book (bookring) out to someone knowing the likelihood of them sending it onto someone else in the ring is slim?

It sucks being the bad gal in most situations (a few times it rocks comes to mind, btw :shedevil: ), but at times it's needed. Perhaps people aren't aware that they're THAT far behind and need a gentle prod?

It's terrible to have to say 'When can I expect this?' but at the same time, not asking and still expecting something is equally as bad. I fight with myself--should I PM the person and ask, or, because I know them, let it slide for a little longer?

That being said, if the host of the swap I'm playing in says "No Restrictions" I'll be fine with it, and know to PM the person if I'm unsure of when I'm going to receive a book I'm owed. But if the swap host says 6 months (or 3 months or whatever), then everyone knows the rules up front and they say "I can do this" when they sign up. If they can't do it, then they're not in the swap. If you're hosting, simply say, "I can't participate other than replace right now."

I just think that good people shouldn't feel as if they have to leave the site, or a swap/vbb/relay because there's a gray area... We just need a decision. The people who are probably misusing the site aren't probably on here anymore and they're probably not voting either.

Okay, how long is it until drinks after work???
:P

Shaunie, I think that if you are the host and the rule is 6 months the swap doesn't happen unless you are comfortable hosting a swap and not being allowed to play in it

:rofl:

I'd like to stress that if majority rule decides to go for say a 6 month restriction across the board, and it falls to the site Moderators to evaluate who is in default and publish a list, I think all of the Mods are in agreement that these terms will be used more as a Guideline than a hard and fast rule.

For example, stuff owed to people who are no longer here and therefore aren't sending stuff out: DON'T COUNT EM! A day or two over the 6 month mark because you're holding an International package to send the current book you're reading to go along with: NO BIGGIE, you're fine!

So if you feel there are special circumstances surrounding a particular transaction that you owe from over 6 months ago, and it doesn't necessarily fit into one of the examples I gave above, simply contact one of the Mods and we'll evaluate your specific situation. I know none of us wants to use any of these guidelines to be mean or restrict anyone's fun unless that person really needs the brakes put on them for seriously overextending themselves.

I hope my post helps to clarify any member concerns about the implementation of such restrictions if it come to that. (Which looking at the current numbers, it probably will.)

:bump:

I'll rely on other players (ie. the person who is owed the 6 month+ book) to let me know. And I'll remind the player of the rule and ask them to bow out.

:rofl:

Honestly, I have hosted and not played in many YBS when I have too many books owed or nothing AVL....no harm in gracefully admitting you're overwhelmed!

Good points Cherie. I agree that there are always special circumstances and these should be taken into account.

I'd like to point out that special circumstances is going to lead to problems.

If there's a rule, I'd like it to be hard and fast. If there are going to be exceptions, they need to be specifically detailed exceptions that are set out in the rules, not 'contact the moderators and we'll see.'

I agree that if there are rules they can't be wishy-washy rules - they have to be clearly defined. I do believe we are all in agreement that a book owed to someone who has disappeared and is not responding to emails and we don't have mailing info, etc. - should not be counted against anyone - and we'll have to figure out how we're going to handle those in the database so they don't keep popping up. While we don't want to just delete them and forget about them, we'll need to figure out something. As for other "exceptions" - we'll need to discuss these openly and make them part of the rules if they are generally agreed on - so that they aren't really exceptions, but instead, things that fall within the rules so everyone knows them ahead of time.

Exactly. I don't want to count books owed to MIA people, and I'm fine with saying something like "you can go up to 7 months if you are holding a book to mail with another book you're currently reading" or something like that. I just think that any exceptions to "Mail within 6 months" (since it seems that's what we're going to have) needs to be defined within the rules, rather than just at the discretion of certain people.

I don't know the feasibility of this programming wise, but maybe books owed to MIA people could be put "on hold"? If Cherie can add that status, and maybe limit the mods to setting it... then when it is determined that someone is MIA and books towards them don't count, all books owed to them can be moved to on hold. We could still find them if we were to mail them and wanted to update the status, but they wouldn't be cluttering the owed list.

I agree with Pepper and Rosie. I'm fine with exceptions for books owed to people who have disappeared, just like I'm fine with something like "I owe a bunch of books to Susie but I'd like to throw in a RABCK and mail them all together. I just have the RABCK left to read - I'll be done with it by the end of the month." Just saying I have a special circumstance and appealing to the mods though is going to leave things hazy as to what's an okay exception and what's not. Short of having the mods announce everytime they make a dispensation for someone and the reason for doing it, no one is ever going to know why Susie, who owes books from 6+ months ago to people who are still around, is still allowed to play in swaps and VBBs but Annie who owes the same amount isn't.

Have to say that I am in agreement as well about a hard and fast rule with exceptions included in the rule.

Leaving an opening like," If you don't fall within the guidelines and want an exception, contact a mod" is not going to work. It would not be fair to the mods to have to make those decisions without the input of the members of this board. It would not be fair to the other members to have some folks get exceptions and not others.

So hard and fast rules with any exceptions written in sounds good to me.

You guys aren't understanding though. You can't write in exceptions! And when we talked about this behind the scenes, all the mods seemed to be in agreement with my train of though. So now you're making me look bad by by disagreeing with what I'm saying, when I'd already stated we were all in agreement. :erm:

Let me give a concrete example.

AM10000 has a book that in the next few days will show up as past due to teachie by 6 months. Y'all know I'm moving out to the San Jose area near where AM lives so I told her to hold that and hand deliver it to me when I'm out there in person (which was initially supposed to be at the end of March but due to things on this end, we've had to push out until the end of April).

How do you write in an exception like that? Of course, AM isn't going to be disallowed from playing because she's got a single book that's gone over the 6 month mark which she's waiting to hand deliver to me for teachie's m-bag. :whip:

I think someone probably initially twisted what I said to make it sound wishy washy, but I certainly didn't mean to make it sound as if exceptions were going to be handed out left and right, only that there are always exceptions to every rule, and those will always be taken into account.

I believe that was the way it was put forth in the mod forum and if none of you can agree to that then I don't know why I'm even bothering. :sigh:

I don't think that anyone twisted anything to make you look anything Cherie. :giggle:


My opinion is that if there is going to be a 6 month rule (or any other time limit rule), that it needs to apply to everyone. If exceptions can not be written in then make it hard and fast. If you know that you have to have all swap books mailed out within 6 months then you make sure you have them mailed out within that timeframe, otherwise you don't sign up for a swap until you do.

For example--
I had a book that I owed to NMZ from July. If the rule had been in effect, then I just would not sign up for a swap until it was mailed. I miss out on a swap or two until I can get the book mailed. It won't kill me. lol It really is as simple as that.

If you start making exceptions for some people for some things, then there is no point in having the rule to begin with.

ETA-- I do think that you can write in certain exceptions, like the one about books owed to members who have disappeared not counting.

Alright, then I'll just agree to disagree on that point. I certainly don't want to have what I feel would be a waaaaaay too stifling environment like that here, one which doesn't allow for any exceptions. But maybe that's just me. :shrug:


ETA - though I do remember the other mods agreeing with the statement, there are always exceptions to every rule, and those will be taken into account. Whether they have to be "written in" or not, when I don't see how every forseeable event can be "written in" to begin with, we didn't discuss the particular writing in point.

OK I see what you mean Cherie.

I would say in that instance, that would be fine. I see that people want hard and fast rules cos then they don't have to make decisions based on each individual, or they don't have to look to the mods for decisions on every swap.

I guess there maybe needs to be a HOLDING bit on the owed books database that the mods can move books like that to - or like the one I owe camis that I will give to her at Convention, for example. I say it needs to be mods that move stuff there, but it doesn't have to be. :shrug: but maybe it would work better that way - any exceptions get moved to there, then they don't have to be "excepted" for every swap.....

It could also be for those books owed to people no longer here.

Is that possible Cherie?

It will mean that members need to go look at the database to see what they owe, if they haven't already.

I suppose also, this is going to be a learning process. It's new. It will be bumpy at first.

See, now you'd fall into the same trap with your example Giz. Some things are going to fall past 6 months every now and again for various reasons like the example I gave, and the one you just gave. How are we expected to write those kind of things into the rules? Isn't it enough to say that exceptions will be taken into account on an as-needed basis? Which is the gyst of what I was trying to say in my first post, even if I didn't word it exactly like that.

Thanks for piping up with another example though Giz. :hug: I was beginning to feel like I was alone on a desert island, and the only one that could see the need for making exceptions from time to time that couldn't necessarily be specified ahead of time. :erm:

;) Exactly.

Trial and Error. The database will function to prevent future drownings :lol:

In general and not in response to any post or maybe just my overall thoughts and musings .......

Jane Doe with her 1-2 books over the 6 mo mark because Mary Smith told her go ahead, finish reading for her "extra special happy exchange", no rush isn't someone I think is OUT OF CONTROL.

I'm sure Jane Doe would have had her books sent out and ducks in a row, if she knew there was a pop quiz coming :giggle: With the change, these regular swappers are going to need time to work on some older deadlines (if they were reading based on their mood before) it isn't going to be sent overnight.

( :P of course you knew that.....I told you I'm just musing)

I think/hope this started because there were some extremes -- that there isn't enough hours in the day nor days in the week to continue swapping/playing if they didn't just start mailing books out un-read.

That is when as friends we need to intervene. The majority of people know their limits and won't need policing. (hmmm, not a great word...sounds too harsh.... need a thesaurus)
They will decline a swap in order to catch up a bit.

When in a hole......................... stop digging :nono:

I appreciate the work that went into the database, and to come full circle, if I wasn't so record /detail keeping -minded, the database serves as a reality check

:duh: " I completely forgot about that book!" :blush:

That's why I thought we could go for - we can make exceptions if they are logical - like the ones we said - and have a mechanism for them - but not I owe a few books and I've not got round to sending them yet type explanations - and not oh it's just Giz, I'm sure she will get around to sending the books type explanations.....cos that is how we got into this in the first place.

I love your analogies mysterious. Many would agree we're like a bunch of addicts, and I've even joked about us having a 12 step program from time to time. But your example brings to mind what happens when junkies go to the extreme. What do we need then? AN INTERVENTION! :rofl: