As you all know, VBB's each have some restriction on participants taking books out if they already owe books going back past 6 months - there are a couple of variations, but this is the most common rule time frame. This has always been easy for everyone to see because each VBB has a corresponding Out-of-Play Thread that is broken down by month/period of play.

Now that we have gone live with the Owed Book Database and have at least 6 months worth of data in it - soon to be data from January 2007 to current - the question arises: do we apply restrictions on swap participation to those folks who owe books for an extended time period? If so, should that time period correspond with the 6 month VBB rule? or should it vary?

We know many people have expressed concerns over some members large owed TBR lists - other people have expressed their concerns over the tracking of owed books - so we expect there will be responses varying from one end of the spectrum right to the other. Please try to keep in mind that some people can't resist the temptation of the swap and thus control themselves - a rule in place will help those people by removing the temptation if they become too far behind, as they simply won't have the option of playing any more. Such a rule can still allow for LOTS of play within a given time period, but would prevent anyone from getting so far behind that the problem becomes overwhelming for them.

I think I've said enough. Feel free to ask questions if you want though!

Please vote for whatever choice you are most comfortable with, and please make suggestions if you have other ideas for options. Thanks!

ETA: Books outstanding refers to not yet mailed. Books that are enroute, including those already mailed to an mbag organizer would not count. :)

I think the Swap hostess or organizer should be able to set his/her own rules.

:ditto:

I think chambejd brought up a problem with that, in that a lack of consistency could cause an issue.

Also, would swap hosts be comfortable making that decision - saying to someone no I don't want you to play because you owe books - rather than it being a board wide policy? :shrug:

I haven't voted, but please could we give the rules etc a rest for now? I really appreciate the reasons the mods are doing this, but it is becoming a bit much.

ETA Sorry if this sounds really negative. It's not a dig at anyone, I'm just finding this sudden cracking down on everything very offputting.

I'm sorry, Sunny - the reason we are trying to address this now is because we have already had questions about it from other members...... but if people want this put on the back burner, we can certainly do that too...... :)

I did vote other, as my post above indicates, but I'll qualify that by saying, in letting the swap host decide, let them adopt a 6 month rule if they want, or a 3 month rule, or a 6 month rule, whatever. I don't think there should be any level of "unsuredness" or uneasyness on the part of the swap host once they decide on the rule they want to use for their swap. :shrug:

I believe it should be consistent across the board so people know what to expect. I voted for 6 months, even though I'm dangerously close to that myself (got two Sept 07 books I'm needing to get read) because I think that's fair. You shouldn't be "booking" yourself that far out honestly. I'm almost consistently using TBR's now and really I shouldn't be. While that's okay if it's your next up, or even your next couple up, it's just really put more pressure on myself, and maybe I'm not in the mood to read that next, but I should, because I've obligated myself to.

I'm Shaunie, and I'm a swap addict! ;)

I personally also think the swap host should decide. If you go for the 3 month rule than I will not be swapping as I wait until I have a bunch for the US before I make the trip down there. This means it could be tomorrow or in 4-5 months. I think I have been fairly reliable so this rule would be a penalty to me for trying to save some money :angry:

I agree that is one of the problems with these kind of rules at all... I mentioned in my own thread that I'm for and against rules actually, because I see the need, but regret the feelings that they cause. Rules should be consistent if you're going to have them, but it's too difficult to make a reasonable rule that takes into account all situations, so then you're back to having different rules for everything and why bother? Just my opinion...

3 months is much too short, considering we have international people, and the fact that we do swap amongst a fairly set group of people, there are probably many people that try to save up a set of books for one person to save postage costs, in which case, maybe 9 months would be a more reasonable rule to establish across the board. I'm not married to 6, but I do feel 3 is much too short of a restriction.

It just seems like it's going to be a difficult thing to regulate if you do allow exceptions (so and so has books outstanding for 10 months, but it's okay because they've already talked to the person they owe and are waiting because they've just won another swap book from them, etc.) but not fair if you don't allow for exceptions at the same time.

It's a catch-22, damned if you do and damned if you don't. :shrug:

I voted for 9 months. Here is my reasoning:

I think that 6 months is a fair amount of time to give everyone leeway for time to read a book that they've promised. That allows for a fair amount of slipping in "extra" books and not being in the mood to read something immediately.

I'd add the extra 3 months to allow for mailing contingencies (e.g., that described by Ace, saving up for shipping multi-book packages, etc.).

That said, I'd be fine with a six month rule, but agree that a three month rule seems too short.

Also, I don't feel strongly that it needs to be the same across the board. Everyone who joins a swap agrees to the specific rules of that swap, so if someone wants to run a "no restrictions" swap and others want to play with the understanding that they might have to wait ages for their books, it's no skin off my back. If I don't like the possibility of waiting, I can stick to swaps with rules.

I just feel that since the 6 month rule was basically insisted upon by the admin and mods in the VBBs then it should apply elsewhere as well.

What is the difference between a VBB and a swap. Why should folks be forced to not participate in a VBB if they owe a book for more than 6 months but not a swap?

Is it then okay to owe a book for more than 6 months and be restricted from taking books out of a VBB but be okay to move over to the swap forum and rack more books on your owed list?

I personally think that if we are going to have restrictions on one thing, then we should have them on all things and they should be consistent.

As someone who always offers TBR books and has quite a stack of owed TBR books, I personally would be very upset if I could not participate in a VBB because I was beyond the 6 month rule and then see someone who might owe swap books for over 6 months be able to swap.

I wholeheartedly agree that we need to have a set time limit on mailing. We all saw what happened with Sand and her owed books. We should not have to, but we do sometimes, have to restrict folks for their own good. It is not really fair to others who are sending books out in a timely manner, to not get the books they are owed because we looked the other way when it was becoming apparent that someone had a problem. That time limit does not have to be 6 months, but that was what was imposed on the VBBs so it should be imposed in swaps and relays as well.


(Yes I am full of piss and vinegar tonight. I am sure there are some mods cursing me as we speak. LOL Sorry guys, don't mean to be a PITA. I just have a habit of playing the Devil's Advocate. You know I love you all. :hug:)

Actually I wholeheartedly agree, which is why I said something in the first place about needing rules also for the swaps and the relays if you were going to impose them on the boxes. Because otherwise you'll have people prioritizing on the shorter time limit things and putting off the others in some cases. I think if you're going to have it, then have it consistent for EVERYTHING, but make it reasonable for all things. So even though I've already voted for 6 months, I'm kind of leaning towards 9 months, to take the wanting to mail things out in groups to save costs under consideration, but I think it should apply everywhere, not just swaps.

Darn poll thingie that won't let us change our votes! ;)

As a swap host I will not go through all the Vbb Books out of play to determine if a player can join. I will however use the Owed Books database and see if books are owed there. I'm sorry I just do not have the time or inclination to go through all those threads every time a person signs up

See, even if I wasn't a mod, I'd rather do all of this at one time so that we can get all the details hammered out and move on to the fun bits!

I haven't voted yet, but my person feelings run to having some kind of board-wide rule, even if in its application the time limit for swaps ends up being different than the limit for VBBs. I do think that leaving it up to the swap hosts is too subjective - I don't think it would be fair for someone who owes tons of books to be able to play in Swap A because Swap A's mod has a no restriction policy, when someone who owes only a few books, that are from a long time ago could be barred from playing in Swap B because Swap B's mod has a 3-month policy. Especially since there are a lot of people who, for whatever reason, play in the same swaps, hosted by the same people time and time again.

Also I agree with Wss, that if we have a policy for the VBBs, we should be consistent and have a policy for the other things we do here as well.

That said, I would be fine with a 9 month rule, which would allow for maximizing shipments to repeat recipients. For the same reasons though, I would think that a 6 month rule would probably be sufficient as well. I can't speak for Ace who understandably lets her mailing pile up, but I think for the rest of us, 6 months is a substantial amount of time to read (and release!) promised books.

9 months? :blink:

I remember I had to wait for an M-bag to finally arrive for more than a year. When it came a lot of the books in there did not appeal to me anymore. My taste had changed in that year. I had bought a lot of books from online shops and it kind of sucked.

Is this about mailed books? Maybe set it up like that. 6 months to mail a book so you don't have to take the time for a book to get there in consideration.

I also think the rule should be for all things. swaps, VBB's what else do we have.

To be honest I do not think it should be up to the hostess of swaps cause then sometimes it will be 6, sometimes 9, sometimes none. This will make it too confusing.

I am not against this rule because sometimes people need to be protected against there selves as we have sadly learned.

I voted for a 6 month limit, and feel that it should be consistent across the board, in all swaps and VBBs for consistency's sake.

Six months will allow people to save up books for the same person to save money on shipping, and hopefully be an early warning system for swappers who may be on the way to getting in over their heads.

That's NOT saying that enthusiastic, long time swappers in excellent standing who have books to be mailed at the six month limit are on the edge of being out of control! Maybe more for newcomers to the site who jump in with both feet for a few months, rack up a bunch of owed books then disappear, or for other situations where it appears a problem is clearly emerging.

Does "books outstanding" mean books that have not been mailed or have not been received? (Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere. I haven't had time to really search the threads.) My only concern is that some books shipped internationally can take a ridiculous amount of time. And those being held for m-bags could sit for three months or more before being shipped.

Books outstanding refers to not yet mailed. Books that are enroute, including those already mailed to an mbag organizer would not count. :)

Good That was what I suggested. I think 6 months is a fair amount of time.
and I voted.

Going to leave this going a while longer as we'd like to see more than 30 people vote...... :)

Thanks for moving it here Rosie. I hope more people see this and put in there :2cents:

Yes good thinking. :)
I thought when I saw it, huh? :wacko: whas this thread here?

It was not.

I guess I want to add my :2cents: since I never voiced them here, at least I don't think I did. :wacko:

I voted for 9 months, because of mailing situations like Ace mentioned. I almost voted for another option and that being let the swap host decide but hosting myself I know that can be a hassle, and I am so not assertive anyway. :erm:

But it counts from mailing day right?
not when the book arrives?

Plus if it is for an M-bag and it takes a bit longer you can pm one of the mods to let them know?
and even ad a note?

What I meant by mailing is you might save a whole bunch up to mail to one person and then mail it. ;)

The time period would be until the book is MAILED - ie, whatever time period we go with, the book should be MAILED within that time period. A book sent to an mbag organizer is considered MAILED - so they are no longer on the OWED list. Hope that helps clarify. :)

The mbag books would have the date of mailing entered and a comment placed in the NOTE field that indicates book has been sent to the mbag organizer.

I don't have time nor the patience to remember everyone's rules. It should be standard.

I agree plus if I have to wait longer than 9 months for a book I know from experience :rolleyes: sometimes my taste has changed.

But there are people that don't mind maybe and chose it when they have an M-bag and say wait till I have enough books before sending out.?

I know I am in the minority here but I hate all the restrictions, as I said in the so good swap thread, I will stop swapping because I feel like it is becoming too much work.

Honestly I feel like everyone is getting punished because a few people got out of control. Honestly as far as the owed books goes, I think everyone here has so many who cares if you got stiffed for a few. I know I have, but I don't mind because I do have so many and I probably receive 90% or better of books owed to me. Before anyone says it, I know Sand owes more than a few, and yes if someone reaches that level then then shouldn't be allowed to participate.

On the other hand I'm sure I took a year to get a book out, does that make me a risk or a bad swapper?

And honestly when you send books out it is very rare that they get read right away. Most of them get thrown on the TBR pile and sit there for quite awhile. If someone mentions to me that they have been wanting to read a certain book for a long time or that they are really excited about it then I would make it a priority. Otherwise I might get to it in a week, month, or months depending on my mood, reading interests at the time, the time that I have to read etc. And once I do read it I may pack it up and it may sit for a few weeks to a month till I get it mailed.

No I hope not.
(Answer to your remark if you ship a book after a year your a bad swapper) :)

That happened to me. I forgot a book for morsie.
I do understand where you are coming from apolonia.

Now it seems that I am very angry :bash: if someone sends me a book after the 6 months :ph34r: but in reality I am not like that at all. I am very patient about receiving books and most of the time I do not even know which books I supposed to get. :rolleyes:

Now that I mostly play in genre swaps, I am more thrilled to get the books though, I admit to that. ;)

But on the other hand we have become bigger, more new members joining and though I do not mind having to wait for a long time for a book, I do not want people to take advantage, people who were not even planning on sending the books to come here.

So what ever is decided it is all good. :hug:

I don't know that I'll stop swapping with the new restrictions, but I'm not going to be in a hurry to host another swap.

It's enough effort to host a swap. Now we have to make another post at the end to get it in the right format for the database. And now we're talking about having to check out every player to make sure that they don't owe books for longer than a certain time period. Sorry, but that's too much effort for me, particularly in large swaps.

My opinion is that the database is there, same as the owed books threads in the VBBs. If I care about getting a book in a certain amount of time, I'll look there before I steal or reveal someone.

I agree about the work involved. Pepper. I think that the idea is that these people will be stopping from collecting books. However I do not reveal people I know will never follow through. With this database I now however have to send my books on to these black holes instead of holding them for 'ransom'

I don't know about that... I think it was discussed earlier, in the VBB's somewhere that you shouldn't be held accountable for books going to people who either have disappeared, or haven't followed through on their own obligations. By accountable I mean kept from participating.

As a swap mod myself, I probably wouldn't be too forceful on rules unless I just know that someone is in completely over their head. In that case I would probably send them a PM suggesting they reconsider, but not flat out banning them. Not sure how I will handle it honestly, because I agree it's additional work to check out each person playing and make sure that they are within the time limit...

Maybe instead of making them flat out rules, we draft what we consider reasonable guidelines, and instead of not letting people play, we see how it goes, when they know what the Generally Accepted Swapping Principles are, maybe they can/will police themselves better? Especially if they know that anyone can look up their activity at any time on the database? (G.A.S.P. :lol: ok, I just cracked myself up with that! Not an accountant, no, not me!)

I agree Shauney - I think it's all about good sense. The database is there - it's a helpful tool like your swap site - and it shows people if they are owing a load of books - it throws ones up that may have been forgotten.

If I owed a book to someone I felt was a black hole or whatever, I'd maybe put something in the notes section of the database saying I was waiting for blah blah book before sending this book.

I don't think anyone is advocating a complete fixed rule that once a book goes a day over 6 months you are barred from swapping, just that good sense prevails.

I am blahing on now cos I am tired :blush:

And I agree with the two of you. :nod:

I'm very anal and mail the book I owe someone within a week after a swap, vbb, ring, ray, etc. :blink: :wacko:

I have a question though. Why is a lot of extra work? If you don't wanna update your stuff in the database one of us mods can. And as for adding the je page you already are adding a pic and that's harder than going to the top of the page of the je and clicking copy then paste it into your reveal. I see what Pepper means by it being more work at the end for the host because you have to add who got what and all. But that helps out so very very much when importing the data in the first place.

The only argument that I have against NOT having a time limit rule in swaps, is that there should not be one in VBBs if there is not one in swaps.

It just makes absolutely no sense to me to tell someone that they can not take a book out of a VBB if they owe one from more than 6 months ago, but then they can go over to swaps and continue to add books to those they already owe from the VBBs.

If we are not willing to put a time limit on swaps, then the time limit on VBBS should be lifted as well. IMO

Shaunie, basically what you said here is what I've been advocating all along. I'm against the fixed rules for swaps for reasons like Ace gave for one. And yes, though it's been discussed that we wouldn't have books owed to "black holes" or others who owe you a lot of books count against these rules, I feel it's a PITA to go through and have to make exceptions. And to expect the swap host to have to "check up on" every player if they don't want to.

IMO, the mods of this site can add people to the Naughty List if they get out of hand, and they'll be barred from participating in Exchanges and stuff too. :shrug: But guidelines should be enough... and if people get out of hand, it becomes apparent to the mods via the database and they contact them. And it's going to be 5 mods who would have to agree that the person's swapping is getting out of hand so no one is going to be arbitrarily added to the naughty list for owing a book over 6 months or something silly like that. :nono:


Now if more people are advocating this kind of thing, why aren't there more votes for OTHER up there? I know I'm one of those 3.... :unsure:

I think because sometimes you think you feel one way and then you think about it for awhile, and think about what others have said, and maybe your opinion changes, but you can't go back and change yer vote! ;)

I think the poll is valid for establishing like I said "Generally Accepted Swapping Principles" which are general guidelines, and a way for people to gauge for themselves how they're doing, which they may not have realized before. How does a new member know when they should maybe back off a bit before they get overwhelmed, well, now we have a guideline that says hey, most people think 6 months is a good time frame, if you're way overextended past that, then maybe you need to think about cutting back some, etc. Rather than completely being cut out of playing.

It's not fair to hold someone to a guideline they knew nothing about, and in a way that kind of happened to Sand, while I agree that her owed books was out of hand, in a way, some of that may have been unfair as her impression was that she was swapping and trading with friends who would continue to tell her, oh, no rush on that, you know what I mean? We say that, but then we expect it within a certain time frame? Seems a little hypocritical to me. (not pointing fingers at all, just showing how our expectations are at odds with what we say sometimes. I've done it myself) So, maybe what we're really doing here is evening the playing field on expectations for everyone, rather than a flat out rule that keeps people from playing.

I dunno... i want books I'm owed, but I don't necessarily want to turn this into a rigid place in order to get that, you know? And I certainly don't expect people to get books to me faster than I can get them out myself. But then all of us have a different turn around time. That's the hard part of coming up with a "rule" everyone's expectations are different.

But if we provide a guideline, then people will be better able to police themselves if there is a standard expectation in place.

Gotta stop babbling and go home sheesh! :lol: :rolleyes:

I agree with what you're saying, shaunie, and that line of thinking leads to a whole new set of questions.... IF we go with no actual "rule", but rather an expectation by which people can gauge things.... Well - at what point should someone step in and say enough is enough if someone is not gauging themselves appropriately? If someone has a large owed TBR list and is taking a year to get books out, is this when you would want a mod to step in and say this person can no longer participate? Would you want everyone to just be checking the database and seeing the problems for themselves and, as someone mentioned, don't ask for that person's reveal? But someone IS going to get that reveal eventually in every swap. And if there is no restriction in the VBB, someone could keep taking books out and having those sent to them, while adding books that no one is taking any more because that person is not sending out...... your VBB could quickly get totally bogged down...... So, really, at what point would you want mods to step in and say someone cannot participate any more until they are caught up? Or do you not want mods to step in at all? In which case, you can't complain when someone is not sending out their owed books.... There are a lot of things to consider really.... Would you rather not have the database and not know how many books anyone owes and leave things as they were? I don't think that's the case because we certainly heard enough about needing some accountability, but the question needs to be considered in light of what everyone is saying.

And I completely understand what you mean about everyone saying 'oh, it's okay no rush on books you owe me' - we all tend to do that with each other - but then at what point does it become NOT okay? Only when someone has gone very deeply into book debt and can't get out and then no one gets their books and everyone is angry and demands to know who let this get so out of hand?

We can't have it both ways - either we decide all people should be able to monitor themselves, in which case we can't get upset when someone gets into a bad situation, like Sand did - OR we decide people can't all monitor themselves and we put something in place to prevent these things from happening.

For some reason, the 6 month rule went over well in the VBBs - but I agree with wss4 that we can't apply rules in one area and not others. If we're not going to go with rules on the swaps, it's not fair to have them on the VBB's either.......

I think we should continue to discuss things and maybe do another poll after all the suggestions, etc. are on the table and people have had time to consider different views. Right now, it really seems like people want SOMETHING in place, we're just not sure what.