I just wanted to open this up for discussion a bit, in the forum rather than in a particular swap thread, so everyone can say what they think about it.

I have found myself not enjoying swaps as much as usual the past week or so, and I was wondering what it was that was irritating me. I had a think and a look back at the threads, and I saw that I was maybe not the only person affected by this :)

It's not a big massive thing, but I have felt it has rankled with me...

I almost always leave moves when I am playing in a swap, in my siggy so they are easily accessible and so play is not held up if I am called away and so other players aren't left waiting always the maximum 12 hours. I am mostly around a lot and check in regularly, and say when I will be returning, but sometimes stuff happens.

The two swaps I have most recently participated in, I felt I'd hardly made any of my own moves despite being online loads (I have no life :lol: ) and this is because the majority of my moves were made at my night time.

Now I have no problem with a move or maybe two being made while I am asleep, but I think it's a bit....greedy for players to be making a lot of moves for european players (for example) while they are asleep - to the point where no more moves could be played anyway :shrug: and then players leaving merrily to sleep / eat / work and not leave any moves themselves. If I am going to play using someone elses moves, I would wait a few hours for them to arrive maybe? Especially if it's the 2nd or 3rd move I am making in their absence???

It's left me feeling like I may as well not have played these swaps. I've had enjoyment of hanging out with you guys, but no play time myself. And the upshot is, I'm not going to feel like leaving moves at all.

I'm not one for making a ton of rules - these things have always happened as a matter of respect and negotiation and experience. What are other people's thoughts?

Hey Giz, I hear ya!

Your point that really stood out for me was about people using the moves you leave and then not leaving any for themselves. That sounds like it could be really really annoying!

I personally don't leave moves if I know I'll be back in less than 8 hours. I also don't leave moves when I think it is highly unlikely to be my turn!

I wouldn't be opposed to a courtesy "wait period" before jumping to use a player's move....for example, give a person at least 6 hours to check-in before using their moves. The time limit is 12 hours; as annoying as it is to wait for the full 12 hours, it is a pretty standard rule....

Anyway, I don't suffer the same frustration as you, but I see your point and can imagine others are feeling similar.

Let's talk about solutions and not point fingers!

I've had the opposite problem. I leave moves and nobody uses them. It's like they are afraid to or something. :shrug:
Maybe I won't leave moves anymore either. :razz:

Giz seriously, just leave 1 move and tell them to wait for you otherwise. Or don't leave a move at all. Tell them you want to play for yourself. Most swaps have 12 hour wait period.

Yes - or maybe change moves left to read please use if not back by this time....

I'm one that doesn't like to leave moves, and I very rarely will. Mainly because I'm never really sure what I want to do until it's my turn and I have to make the decision.

My problem is with people that leave moves, say "I left moves - please use them", then get a little miffed when we do. And the people that drag their feet about using said moves.

*I* prefer to let people play for themselves whenever they can. Reveals are fine for doing for other people, that doesn't bother me in the least, but other moves I think players should be able to make for themselves. Especially when the limit is 12 hours, well, why aren't we giving them those 12 hours? I know it seems like a long time when your turn is next, or you're wanting the swap to move along, but go read a book or something! LOL :lol:

And if you do choose to leave moves, PLEASE leave an expiration or timeframe on those moves!

If I know I'm going to be gone more than 12 hours because of something going on in my life, I usually won't even sign up to play in a swap.

Just my :2cents:, take it or leave it, like it or lump it. :soapbox: :teehee:

I used to leave moves. For a while I didn't like the idea, but then I decided that I was okay with it if there were no new reveals. I didn't want to hold up game play, etc. etc.

But then a few months ago a couple of things happened in a couple of different swaps I was playing in.

One was that a move was used after a reveal had been made, despite my moves specifically saying "do not use if there have been new reveals." Now, granted, it was MY book that was revealed, so it was probably pretty obvious that it wasn't going to affect my moves, but there was a reveal, and my moves did say don't use if there has been a reveal.

The other was that in a different swap I was playing in at about the same time, I noticed that people started getting cranky with people who didn't leave moves... but only at certain times. People would go to bed and not leave moves, and then the very next play would make it their turn, so we'd have to wait until they got up in the morning, but all hell would break loose if things had to wait during my workday, for example.

During that swap, I took down my moves for a day or two. I ended up putting them back up for the duration of the swap, but since then, I haven't left moves, and I have no intentions of doing so in the future unless I know there is a very good chance I will be gone longer than 12 hours. Honestly, unless I'm out of town and know in advance that I won't be checking in for a couple of days and plan my swap play accordingly, if I don't check in for over 12 hours, there's a good chance that something has happened that means I no longer care in the least what happens in that particular swap, no offense to anyone playing in it.

I was actually thinking the other day about how there used to be so many more ALS's - and how a lot of them came about because the 12-hour swaps were stalled waiting on someone. Rather than gripe about how the swap wasn't moving and wouldn't for several hours because so-and-so was in bed/at work/wherever, we'd say, "Hey, there's a bunch of us bored here, let's have an ALS!"

It was much more fun.

That is true pepper :) we did have more ALS. I loved them. I suppose now I have a better job which I have to do work in, and doesn't involve ghastly shifts, I am not here so much to DO ALS

Plus so many people owe such a scary amount of books..... or have no AVLs.... like me..... :scared: :lol:

I personally have no problem with people not leaving moves. I used to when I first started swapping but since they were rarely used I stopped doing it. Short of any unexpected computer or life problems, I know I'll be around -well, except when I'm asleep, of course...but that's one of the main reasons for the 12-hour rule, isn't it? That and time zone differences.

I know it's more fun, of course, to play rather than sit around, but that's really got to be one of the risks you accept when you sign up for a swap - waiting. I have absolutely no problem waiting. I'll just go read something in the meantime... :lol:

I entirely agree with you giz. I feel just the same and have decided not to leave moves as regularly as I used to - only when I know I'll be away for quite a long period.

I have no problem with someone using a move if I've left one and when I obviously won't be around for some time but have had instances of more than one of my moves being made despite several reveals occuring in the meantime and that my wakey up time was imminent.

I would suggest that all it takes is for all players to understand that even if we leave moves we would rather make them ourselves. This is an international game so we are all up and about at different times so sometimes we do have to wait for a few hours. We are all permitted 12 hours to amke our goes.

Could we
1. Not play for someone we expect to be around in the next 3-4 hours.
2. Moves are not used for more than 2 people in a row.
3. Only 1 move is made for a single player during 1 period of absense.

:ditto:

That said, If I leave moves I am absolutely happy for them to be used, but I'm now thinking perhaps I won't leave them so often, as I rarely seem to make moves myself these days. If I'm at work or asleep it's fine, but otherwise I'm usually in and about every couple of hours.

I particularly like this suggestion
3. Only 1 move is made for a single player during 1 period of absense.

Because although I usually leave a few moves I do this in case the first ones aren't valid rather than saying use them all.

Yes I think this would be good - I leave more moves than one in case I have a computer or connection nightmare but .....

You’re not the only one of course. I was waiting the end of the swap I’m hosting to point my opinion (with quotes) about this issue because I saw something utterly selfish. I mean one player openly expressed that she doesn’t prefer to wait others to play their own move because she’ll go to bed but thinks it’s perfectly OK to play on behalf of others while they are sleeping. And the move is random reveal!
And when those others posted :angry: after seeing that all their moves has been used and they have to wait for 8-9 hours for next move no one reacted at all. (and that same person said that she is too sleepy to think about her move so we’ll have to wait)

I know Bree said “without pointing the finger” but I’m afraid I can't do that. I really don’t see how she’ll realize otherwise. I mean ”I don’t like when people are playing while I’m sleeping but I don’t give a damn about others when they’re sleeping”. Well hon’ that’s not going to happen (anymore)

And I’m really surprised no one reacted. It seems here is the rule when someone said “I say let’s do it” no one (except zzz the idiot of course) will stand and say ”let’s not”. I don’t know if disagreement would be considered as confrontation and something more serious but hey we shouldn’t be tolerant toward intolerance.

I think I have mixed feelings on leaving moves. I don't mind leaving moves for myself, I just usually dont like having to update my siggy to do it - mainly because it never fails that the first time I hit 'update' it doesn't go through and everything is lost..so I have to recreate my whole siggy over again, just to leave two moves that say '1. reveal soandso 2. wait for me.' But that's another story :P

I dont mind using other people's moves when it's clear that they wont be back soon - like its the middle of the night for them, or they've just posted that theyre going out for a certain time and then they get robbed - otherwise, I'm inclined to just wait for them.

Also, I find it confusing when people leave, let's say 4 moves: Is that the order you want the moves to be played in, or is #1 really the move you want to be done, and #2 is your second choice (does that make sense?). For instance, I leave moves where #1 is my first choice, and as many times as that move is available to be done in my absence, that's what I want - only when you can't do it, should you move on to move #2. But I know in one instance, I have left two moves and while #1 was able to be done, whoever it was that made my move did #2. So it was probably my fault that I wasn't clear but I suspect I'm probably not the only one confused.

I do agree with whoever it was that said things are less fun now. Its like no one really chats in the play thread anymore. We might as well just have a moves and reveals thread. Before, while we were waiting, there used to be all sorts of convos, so you still had lots to do in the thread even though there wasn't any play going on. Now, not so much :( I don't know if thats because we can make moves in absentia or not, but I've definitely noticed.

I miss the ALSs too. :sigh:

Great topic, Giz! It's always good to get things out in the open and clear the air. :hug:

I haven't played in any swaps for quite a while... not because I made a conscious descion to stop, but because of two reasons. One is that Mt. TBR is threatening to crack the floorboards already, plus I haven't been reading much, so don't really have much to offer and don't need more books anyways.

But the other thing is that for me, the swaps weren't much fun anymore. I'm online a LOT, in and out all the time, but I still felt so much pressure to be online 24/7 or leave extensive moves or both. And when I woke up in the morning, or checked in on a swap after any length of absence, I couldn't even read through the swap thread banter or reply to anything, because gods forbid they've been waiting on you for 15 minutes and you're online now for 30 seconds and you haven't posted a move yet. :P Now I know half this pressure is probably just in my head, but wherever it was coming from, it just wasn't fun anymore, so I just gradually stopped playing.

I kinda think maybe there should be a "moves rule" for each swap, so that everyone knows the expectations. Like, to play in this swap, you are expected to always leave at least one move, but it won't be used until we've waited 6 hours for you, or something. Or, it might be fun to organize a "no moves allowed" swap sometime... although it may take a month or two to finish! :P

I have left moves in the past and regretted leaving them because so much had gone on in the game that would have made me play differently. I have now learnt to word my moves in a way that I hope will not cause confusion.

I have also learnt to delete my moves if I am online. Some people can't be bothered to wait a few hours while I eat and watch TV and just use my moves even though I posted I am around all day. I hate being told that it is too much work and hassle to look over the whole thread for everyone's specitications.

Which leads me to wonder why I bother checking to see if the next person up is online...if they left any moves and stated when they would be back. However if I didn't bother doing this I am sure I would get bitched at by the people who didn't wait for me.

I feel like I have to leave moves because being in Europe I am asleep when most of the action goes one. Although I have now on occasions not left moves and the whole swap has been put on hold because of it. In my defense I have to say that I have no idea how I want to play and there is the 12 hour rule. So what if I don't leave moves.

I could keep on for hours about things that bug me about swaps lately. Moves being just one of them. It wouldn't help anything though.

#1 sounds good but with everyone in different time zones I don't think this would work very well. I have often got to work at 6am (when I have the early shift) and seen messages posted at 4am saying that 'Amber will be up soon'. Which I think is laughable! If I didn't have the early shift I would be checking in about 8am and soon is not in 4 hours time.

I am sure the person posting 'Amber will be here soon' doesn't mean anything nasty by it but it makes me feel bad about holding a game up when I logged off at 11pm and have till 11am to check in again.

#2 Sounds good again but why should whoever just happens to be online at the time play by themselves? Why have a 12 hour rule when people are made to feel guilty if they don't leave moves!?

#3 This could work but I still think that leaving moves can sometimes go wrong for the person leaving them.

Oh and I think there should be a change in the swaps to make the 2 threads different.

I think the one thread with the reveals should also be the game update. Then the 2nd thread should only be chat.

I know people like to chat but I hate having to read through 10 pages + in the morning before I can make my move or find the moves made for me. I have joked about the amount of pages but sometimes it is no laughing matter. Spending 10 mins trying to find the last update sometimes makes me want to quit the game.

It has perfect sense. I asked the same question about dozen times and I'm still confused.

I dunno, I feel like moves are a courtesy, and shouldn't be a requirement. With the exception of some kind of computer failure, I think everyone is pretty capable of making it back here in 12 hours (most times! I've cut it pretty close a couple of times!) If the rule is you have 12 hours to make your move, people should honor that and not be upset that you didn't leave a bevy of moves for the 3 hours you anticipate going to dinner and a movie. Until and unless the 12-hour rule gets reduced or limited, I wouldn't want to see a 'must leave moves' rule. Sometimes you just don't know in advance what you'd like to do.

You shouldn't feel like this at all!
12 hours rule is not to annoy anyone but precisely to allow EVERYONE to play. So being in Europe means that we should just sent our reveal info and wait to receive PM to find out which book we'll receive!? Well, NO thank you!

It wouldn't bother me in the slightest if all swaps were designated "no moves". Am I weird in thinking this? See, the way I've always looked at the swaps is that they're most fun when they just meander along at no particular speed...a rush of activity now and then, then a slower period, then some more activity...until the last move is made. I am a little confused to see that there seems to be a school of play that wants to hurry things along. Why? I don't get it. There's no particular advantage in having a swap that's over in three days. Or is there? I don't know.

I don't care if I have to wait 11 hours and 55 minutes for someone to take their turn. I really don't. I do, however, understand that this drives some people crazy. It's just that I don't understand why.

What I do understand is that people have some very strong feelings about the issue one way or the other. And this seems to be contributing to making the swaps more complicated and less fun. That makes me sad.

I think ( ?) most people have another method of contact with someone else on here if they have a PC disaster?

I definietley don't think it should be imperative to leave moves...but it is great that people tend to send out reveals these days!

I don' think we used to leave moves in the 'olden days' did we?

What amber said - we used to have a moves thread a reveal thread and a chat thread I think, at one time....No reason we couldn't do it again.

I was a bit wary about posting this but I am glad I did now cos it's a really good way of airing a lot of concerns.

I think some swaps are chattier than others - the Best of swap has been really chatty and I know the last chick lit one I was in, we didn't want to stop swapping cos we were still chatting!

I remember pming moves to people who said they would be around - not just leaving them in sigs. I can't remember exactly when that started - I know it was on the old board.

I don't.

I actually wondered about this once. I had to work late because someone was ill and then I had a team meeting after. My boss is always in work when we have a team meeting and I knew she would be on the computer. If I hadn't have worked late I could have checked in...

Luckily for me my boss had to go to the toilet and I jumped online while she was gone.

I could send a message to Rianonne but I actually don't get a signal from my phone in work. Also Rianonne doesn't play in the swaps and shouldn't have to rush online to leave a message for me.

While we are here one pet peeve of mine is people using older books as reveals. I know most swaps don't put a time frame on the book you can use as a reveal but I think people should be more considerate when choosing a reveal.

I have given up playing in the Chick-lit swap because of this. Both times I played I got stuck with books that I had already read. No problem usually...it happens to me alot. However one of these books was 10 years old and the other 7 years old.

Now if you are a 'chick-lit' person and play in a chicklit swap it is highly likely that the majority of people playing would have already read these 2 books. I am sure the other players were breathing a sigh of relief when they saw that I had got stuck with the old book.

But this is how I feel alot of the times. I can play in a swap and don't see any action!!

I misread that the first time. I don't either. I texted nou once, but I'd have to look through MONTHS UPON MONTHS of bills to find her number. Shaunie's on my cell phone buddy list but she's often not online. Luckily if my comp isn't working, I can go to my mom's house or use one at school, but I wouldn't know how to contact anyone here outside of the computer.

I guess this aspect doesn't bother me that much as I think most people offer to replace books that aren't stolen and there are sometimes great books that I missed somehow. I know we've tried to create some lists of relay killers that are books that are so popular that nearly everyone who wants to has read them, but it's sometimes hard to tell if a book will turn out to be one that everyone has already read or one that's and "oldie but goodie" that some people will have missed...

Also, at least for me, this site is exposing me to a lot of books/genres that I'd never heard of, so I won't have read everything already...

Heck, I recently stole a copy of Siddharta from a swap because somehow I never read that "classic" and would like to...but probably wouldn't have even thought about it but for seeing it in the swap.

As to leaving moves...it's hard with some of the bigger swaps to remember everyone's individual feelings about moves. In some swaps, where there are tons of books that I'd be interested in and no specific ones I really want, I leave moves that I'm perfectly happy to have used at any time. In the current "Best of" swap, I'm feeling more particular because there are a couple of books that I'd most like and some that I've already read and such...so I haven't been leaving moves.

That said, I don't mind waiting as I'm not really in any hurry for a particular swap to end.

The difference here is that it's entirely likely that you may end up with a book you've already read, regardless of whether or not it's been stolen.

I think the problem with the chick lit swap especially (and I agree with you Amber, it's hard when you've read all but 2 of the books revealed (and you aren't interested in 1 of them! :lol:)) is that in that swap there's usually people who either LOVE chick lit and have read most of whats out there already, or people who are relatively new to the genre and so don't know/care about what's old and what's new. Chick lit is one of the main genres I read so I've read a lot of what's out there already, and that can make playing in the swap less fun - especially when I'm offering a newly published book and I end up with something that was published in 2002 (and I read in 2003).

I dont want to hijack this thread into a debate on offering newly pubbed books v. older ones - I realize not everyone has money or access to new books, that's really not my point. I only wanted to say I agree with Amber that, especially in genre swaps, it's sometimes hard for the diehard genre reader.

Well I walked away from both Chick-lit swaps I played in with nothing. Both people offered to send me something else but there was nothing on their shelves that I hadn't read already or wanted to read.

Which is really weird because I usually read paranormal stuff and rarely read chick-lit.

Yeah, I liked the leaving moves with someone who would be around - I don't remember when they started going into sig's either, but I don't care for that - people can then look at other's moves and plan strategy around them - it's made the game quite different, I think there's been a difference since that started...

I'm another who liked the times when we would skip to an ALS if a bunch of us were hanging around waiting for someone to make a move in our regular swap - that was always fun!

I had stopped swapping for quite a time while I caught up on owed TBR's and I just came back to playing in a few in December - didn't enjoy them - something has definitely changed!

As to moves being left or not, I understand both sides of that particular issue - it's how the ALS came into being - it's perfect for those who like the fast and furious action and no waiting - with some regular swaps and some ALS, everyone could play the kind they wanted, or both! But the ALS seems to have really subsided, again I don't know why, but I haven't been in the swaps for several months so I'm not up on what happened during that time..... And now I've decided to stop swapping again anyway, for the most part, so I won't chime in on either side because it doesn't affect me - I've enjoyed both types of swaps in the past - but the fun of swaps is gone for me now.

I'm glad you spoke up though, Giz! It's obvious others share your concern and therefore it's something that needs to be addressed. :hug:

I am glad that I am not the only one who has the same views.

I really thought that if a swap is genre specific that the people playing in it would go out of their way to find a reveal that is on alot of wishlists, is new or unusual enough that the people playing would want that book.

So it is really annoying when all the books are old or big names.

And please be sure not to apply my view to the PUF swap though. That is my own fault for reading too much and too fast ;)

As far as moves go, I usually only leave two. And I'm one of the hesitant ones when it comes to using someone's moves if there have been new reveals. Usually, if it says that the person wants to go out with a certain book in their moves then I don't mind making the move. When I say that I want to go out with a book, I am 200% behind that decision and will hug anyone who makes moves to get me that book, lol

It's just tricky. I'd say if you feel like your moves are always being made for you, then only leave a move or two and say that you'd prefer if people waited for you to come back.

However, I'm not a fan of the reveals + chat being in the same thread and having play separate. I think if you just want to know what's happened, you can go to the latest update and moves are listed there. I love that the reveals are alone and I can just pop over there and figure out what book I'd be interested in.

I used to Love To Swap, especially the Thursday Light Night ALS's (remember the time Ri wasn't even playing but kept posting those nasty pics of the Master Clean? :runaway: ). But for some reason they just aren't fun anymore for me.

I don't leave moves. I prefer to play my own game. If there is a 12 hour limit, I don't think we should be required to leave moves if we will be gone for 3-4 hours.

I don't buy too many books, so I'm sorry if all of the books I have, you have already read. I'm not going to buy a new release to swap with.

I find it easier to stay away than to be disappointed at the end of a swap. Not by the book I won, but by the whole experience.

I quit playing in the Chick Lit swap because of this same issue. I either had read the book, or still had it on TBR.

I'm not trying to pat myself on the back or anything, but I do try to pick out a good book for a swap. If the list of players isn't too big, I will check wish lists, I will even try to pick something that's new that I think the players will like. Sometimes I check bookshelves to see how many others playing even have the book I want to offer. If it's a swap like a YBS (no specific genre) I even try to pick something that's along the lines of what the people read that are playing.

:shrug:

I've already mentioned my views on the moves thing, so now you have my :2cents: on the book thing too. :D


PS The problem using the older books is just that by then many people will have already read them, as I'm sure has been mentioned.

Glad you brought this up Giz because it is so annoying in swaps when people are happy to use everyone else's moves but then don't leave any of their own. I do try and leave overnight moves, but am thinking I may not bother in future...if the Europeans can be expected to wait 8 hours for North American players to wake up, I'm sure they can do the same for us!!

And I don't remember there being *that* many problems in the 'old days(!)' before we started leaving moves in sigs...yes, games could go on a while but was that really a problem?

You're welcome to my number if it would help

Thank you for the offer :hug: but it wouldn't be much help. As I mentioned I don't get a signal in work (we are in the sub basement of an old building with thick walls) and I don't get breaks. So I can't go off and call or text. :unsure:

I just wanted to say, as a newcomer to this group that I appreciate how friendly and helpful everyone is. This thread demonstrates that, it is a tribute to everyone that this has remained a conversation. I really do not know where I stand on the whole moves or no moves. I don't leave moves because I am an impulsive person who likes to make her moves at the spur of the moment.

Once in a bygone era I sometimes miss, we used to have a Play Thread, a Reveals Thread and a Moves Thread, the latter being very useful when one wanted to check what kind of action had been going on without having to shuffle through pages and pages of chit-chat. I think we ended up deciding that having three separate threads for a single swap was too much but sometimes I miss the usefulness of the Moves Thread, especially because of what Amber said.

On the matter of moves, I have always tried to leave moves when I go to bed but like everyone else, I like making my own moves. I've had first moves in swaps made while I was sleeping and that always leaves a taste of disappointment behind. I used to be very enthusiastic about using moves other people left but I always tried to use them moderately. As in, never use a move when new reveals had been made and try not to use too many of the moves people left because, in all honesty, it sucks when everyone else plays for you but your own self.

I know waiting 12 hours can be boring and frustrating but I think it's the best way to go because of all the incredible conversations that usually are born during those waiting periods (and the ALS, in the bygone times). And, really, it feels so much better when you make your own piratey acts instead of coming back from a night at the movies to find out two of your moves were made and there had been new reveals you were, in fact, more interested in.